saint

Offer to pay the whole amount (over a period of time.) After all, he did entrust it to your care, and you did accept it, and you should have known that leaving it anywhere on the uni premises is pretty much like sticking a big neon sign that say "steal me" on it (c.f. the missing Dramasoc cash.)

It's likely that, unless he's a bit of a bastard, he won't expect you to pay for all of it. But at least you've done the Right Thing and left it up to him to decide your liability.

If you have personal contents insurance, you should first check your policy because it might be covered under that. The policy should be on their web site.

Options:
- Plead the fifth
- Buy him a donkey and then covet it
- http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/education/lessonPlans/pinholeCamera/

Tark's email address is a good reason as to why you should not take off email requirements.

Also, law of contract dude. You accepted it and it is seen as your responsibility.
No offense but claiming it is not all your fault because it was stolen is a bit... well... dumb. If it was locked away in a secure cabinet and it was stolen then no, it wasn't your fault. You put it down, probably in a wide open space.

My wallet missing was my fault. Those places are notorious for stuff like wallets, phones and watches being stolen but I still put it in open space. The person who stole it pisses me off but really, I should've been more careful.

If he is a bastard, he can take you to the small claims court and win so you should take Mogs advice.

I'll try and find the relevant case from LWST301 but, in my opinion, offering to pay some of the money rather than all is actually a little rude.

Mmmk, so I take back part of my argument. You left it under something... sorry... should stop skim reading things.

Heq: "law of contracts dude" Uhnuh. What contract? Here Heq, have this giant smelly carcass. Oh you put down the giant smelly carcass and went off saying "what the hell was up with him", then it is stolen (?) and I come and say "hey Heq. Where is that giant smelly carcass" and you say "piss off, dick, what the hell do you think you were doing" although you probably say d*ck or something. And anyway, what contract? There is perhaps, PERHAPS some nominal care that is expected, but he didn't ask for the camera, it was given to him, willingly, by the owner. The owner did not spell out such things as what would hapeen in this case, or any other case. So I don't see any contract. Also, if someone had robbed him with a knife, rather than stolen from him would we be going, oh yeah, you totally owe that guy a camera? I think not.

Note, this is not an opinion on what he should do, simply an objection to your argument.

Also, dumb arse for not having insurance.

Aren't we forgetting the option of stealing someone else's digital camera? Then you use it to take photos of likely targets for human organ theft. Then you take their kidneys without permission and use the money you make to buy a replacement camera.

Obvious, really.

I'm with Tim. Ignore Mark's theory of contract. He didn't offer a contract when he handed it to you, No conditions. And, importantly, he didn't offer renumeration. All you were doing was a favour - which as far as I can tell does not make you liable under any court here. Basically, it is up to you - the honour *cough* thing. I think offering half is more than generous.

And -no insurance? WTF?? dumbass.

(a) Part of the fun of having the email address thingy on is the sheer volume of amusing email addresses that people seem to be able to come up with.

(b) Thanks for the advice and opinions, one and all - it's been a question that's rolling round my head for the last week, and an event that definitely took the shine off the show as a whole.

The whole no insurance thing is also a bit annoying - kind of like abdicating some personal responsibility towards a pretty darn expensive piece of equipment. I lend my car to people safe in the knowledge I have insurance that covers them in case something goes wrong, I suppose I feel that this is the way it should be done (or at least maybe a lending with the proviso "Don't lose it, it's not insured" or something").

I feel that if I do pay the full amount, I end up paying a lot more than I would have if he had insurance on it. Then again, perhaps the cost of covering the no claims bonus that would've been lost would even up the score?

Oh, another thing, if I'd borrowed the camera from him, I would replace it without a second thought - but as it was him asking a favour of me which ended the way it did, I feel somewhat less responsible. (I don't know if this is in any way a fair thought or comment...)

At the moment I'm tending towards offering as Mog suggests above, and hoping that he's a decent enough guy to have thought of much of the above (throwing myself at the mercy of the court, so-to-speak). But feel free to continue to offer thoughts and comments.

One day I will go back and finish my degree... but in the meantime: NOT a contract.

He probably should have been insured but an offer to repay some of the cost price would be nice. Alternatively, http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/listings/listings_category.asp?mcat=0345-0906-

Contracts are about offers and acceptance, guys. A contract was offered and it was accepted. The law would still see it as a legal verbal contract.

Luther, you argument is flawed in the sense that I would not accept the smelly carcass. You would also have to prove that the smelly carcass was of some importance to you and I think the issue would be more along the lines of "What the fuck is Luther doing with a smelly carcass?" or as you think I woul say it "What the f**k is Luther doing with a smelly carcass?".

Saint accepted the camera and therefore accepted responsibility for liability of damages and theft. He had every opprtunity to say "sorry mate, get someone else to do it". He didn't because of some sense of conscience or staff-ly obligation.

On that note, if he was a bastard and did what Mog suggested, you could claim that it was a duty appointed to you and you took it under the responsibility of an employee of the show.
I broke the van at work. Under my contractual agreements, I did not have to pay for the damages. Punished for it? Yes. Pay? Not.

On other sides of the story, no insurance is in fact crappy like the entire situation.

Dave, yes there was acceptance. The guy was in a hurry to get to Scriptless? Too bad. He still had the opportunity to say "Oi, Assistant Director, NO!".

It's actual more about coming up as an employee duty thing as he was asked to use the camera for work purposes.
In fact, turning him down could've meant failure to comply with a reasonable request by a superior... interesting.

hehehe you guys are funny.

Personally I would offer to pay for the camera because that is what I feel is the right thing for me to do in this situation. Do what you feel is right to do whether that be offer to pay, offer to pay half or hit him in the head with a big stick.

If you do something you aren't comfortable with then you will just end up feeling like shit and poor, instead of just poor.

Put it this way: if the roles were reversed, how would you want him to behave if he had just lost your brand spanking new camera to which you are quite emotionally attached?

A lot of the time it's not what we do, it's how we do it. We've still got these unwritten rules of social etiquette, even though they've been somewhat killed by the pervasive American culture of each-to-their-own. Generally, if someone sees you've taken full responsibility and are acting passively, they'll appraise the situation from your perspective and (hopefully) act fairly. If you don't, you run the risk of them feeling like they've got a bad deal and going on the offensive.

If you don't feel it's your fault, that's one thing. But if you just can't (or don't want to) afford it, then say to him you can't afford it now but you'll pay it off over a year.

Renumeration is when you count stuff again. Remuneration is a payment in consideration of something. Subtle, eh?

My inner pedant needs to get out a bit more.

Heq: Contracts are about offers and acceptance, guys. A contract was offered and it was accepted. The law would still see it as a legal verbal contract.

I disagree. While contracts may be about offers and acceptance, there was no offer of a contract, there was simply an offer of a good. There can be no implicit contract in such a situation, who knows what it would cover?

Or how about a different tack. If there was a contract what was Saint gaining from the transaction? Was he paid a retaining fee for his care of the camera? No he wasn't. If he didn't get anything, he wouldn't (per economics) enter into the contract, therefore there is no contract.

Sorry Heq, it was not a contract. At no point was there an offer with any reasonable consideration. Look at the benefits to the parties. Party A gets some photos and some free photography labour, Party B gets what, "fun with camera" time?

If anything, the relationship between the parties was that of 'agency'.

NOT a contract. A contract requires an explicit offer and an explicit acceptance. Something of value must change hands. So, if he had offered to pay Nic in goods or services, then there might have been a contract. But if you ask someone to hold your camera for free - no contract. Free time with shiny camera is at best an extremely ambiguous oral contract which would be worth the paper it wasn't written on. Most of us would agree that Nic has a moral obligation to do something, and that losing the camera wasn't necessarily the brightest thing he's done lately - but there is no legal compunction to do jack.

Nice way to get comments, Nic.

Tell him hes a fucking idiot for having an $800 camera without insurance. Tell him you'll pay the standard excess on content insurance, c$250. If he has a problem with that, send him to me, and I'll bring the smackdown. Poncy martial arts nonsense ain't got nothing on the Red Fury. Yeah.

Dave: Correction: He didn't lose it. It was stolen.

I'm totally with Caire on this one.

People without insurance should be subject to daily taunts.

You know, in light of all this, it's possible - nay, likely - that everyone needs to get out more.

Who's volunteering their house for the next party then?

I think it must be you turn squire.

Sorry, meant stolen. And I'm with initiating operation Claire on his arse.

I strongly suspect that there is no legal liability here. Ask my mum if you want to know for sure. I never thought I'd agree with both James and Claire simultaneously, but on this occasion they seem to be offering the most sensible advice. Assuming there is no legal liability, make some compromise between the needs of your wallet and conscience. Anything from $0 to $800. It really is his bad luck.

http://heq.stuff.gen.nz/blog/index.php?p=30

I was mistaken but I still think its your fault for not taking more care and his fault for not having insurance.

you are all welcome to come to my place to party. Although, I suspect that you're all too soft.

Things I would like to do:

Get on a plane and go to Canberra on day, turning up on torshin's doorstep asking where the party at :-)

Damn! He got in first! I too am totally up for offering our place as a venue. Come party. Canberra style.
OK, so that's no incentive, but still, come. Party.

Also, just to enter this long-winded debate, I have two things to offer.

One, Mog makes sense with his etiquette comments...

Two, quit angsting and tell the guy. Work it out from there.

There is no angst (well, none compared to how much when I really get going :), and the guy and I have talked initally about it and decided to let it lie for a bit - so no worries there.

Currently I'm exploring insurance possibilities vis-a-vis either mine or possibly musoc's own insurance. Will see where that leads...

(And Dave, you're right: this is the best way yet to get comments, with the exception of Ben's yearly events thingo :)

I have a theory that a lot of comments becomes sort of its own attraction, with people feeling they have to add more because there are already a lot. Like me right now, for instance.

Good luck with your and Musoc's insurance companies...however, (although I admit I know little of matters insurential*, except what I have seen on Fair Go) the general impression I have of insurance companies leads me to believe that the standard response to any possible claim you might make from this position will be for them to laugh so hard that milk comes out of their nose.

James and Teens, forward the airfares to everyone and there could be a party at your house next week.

If this is an unpalatable option, I vote someone actually in charge of a house volunteers it for general use. Sorry, Tim. I would if I could, but I can't, so I won't.

* If this isn't a word, it should be.

Seeing as our house managed to get nominated a couple a weeks ago for a party, it's only fair that Claire and I get to decide. Frankly, there is something appealing about Frank and a keg so I provisionally nominate Ben's place. Or you can try Blenheim.

As for comments, damnit. 31 must be a record. I only get people excited when I use words like 'star wars' and 'man shaft'.

Maybe a record if we discount Ben's epic history post.
Add me to the list of people suggesting you pay half at most.

And there should be a flat warming sometime at my place, once I can convince Dave to do it.

Pay half at most. What we used to call at Meridian, a "Goodwill gesture."

Have already partied Canberra-style. It was great. You lot are missing out!

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